00:00
and boom hey are we ready we're ready
00:05
hey nerds conversation with the people
00:14
behind the technology that love what
00:16
they do and do tech good and we thank
00:23
you so much for being with us yeah yeah
00:25
it's so cool I mean you've been on the
00:27
show I think
00:28
uno dos tres times this is the first
00:31
time we've actually had you live yeah I
00:33
knew I didn't really does that many
00:34
times
00:38
yeah the conference apart today soon
00:43
great so far yeah but you get to see I'm
00:45
just a friend Sara so FAR's first you
00:47
talks um yeah it's the first morning so
00:49
it's just getting started oh that's
00:51
awesome yeah good to meet new friends
00:53
medical people actually this morning the
00:56
running group we all went out the first
01:05
boat doesn't really come when they sit
01:06
just kind of comes on it once there's
01:09
like a bunch of misses sitting there at
01:10
the end of the dock like josh is the one
01:19
that set up the runway and he's the
01:21
inventor we talked to Rachel Andrew
01:22
tonight yeah he's the inventor of the
01:24
couch to 5k
01:26
yeah very apropos yeah we did like the
01:43
campground part there's a lot of very
01:46
serious golf carts and trailers out
01:47
there here is pretty cool oh it's nice
01:49
you know I always feel like that's a
01:50
great way to start your day you feel
01:52
more energized kind of get get that
01:54
little bit out of the way and you have
01:55
your metabolism for the rest okay yeah
01:58
that's like you can't fit it in any
02:01
other time if you don't do it before the
02:02
conference starts oh you're just not
02:03
going to you're gonna no no drinks
02:08
asleep yes doughnuts like hmm yeah well
02:11
this is this is what I'm gonna do
02:13
donut high-five doughnuts we love you
02:19
you know it's very weird
02:21
I might have visited that donut cart
02:23
once or three times
02:24
I'm not going to incriminate myself but
02:27
it in my path
02:35
tomorrow you are you still nice are you
02:40
looking to go to the mother ship over
02:44
across the other side of the country or
02:45
are you gonna stay in the Pittsburgh no
02:47
singing Pittsburgh for now I mean I end
02:49
up consumed Francisco la I think I went
02:50
there like four times this summer it was
02:53
really sort of funny I'm like and I'm in
02:54
San Francisco again everyone's like what
02:56
are you doing here Mike oh you know
02:57
working is a really fun being a person
03:01
who's not always in the office because
03:02
then you can just show up and not tell
03:03
anyone and just like kill I mean it's on
03:06
the west coast so I'm on the East Coast
03:07
I usually get there really early I'm
03:08
just like in their section of desks and
03:10
they're like look just sit in the cafe a
03:16
lake where everyone comes in and just
03:18
like watch people get confused like
03:19
because the first are like why are you
03:22
here well today or tomorrow tomorrow
03:43
yeah tomorrow yeah um yes I'm on
03:45
tomorrow after lunch and I'm gonna be
03:46
talking about how to make more
03:49
expressive products with animation and
03:50
sound so basically like a lot of my
03:53
focus is on like how to make those
03:54
decisions around animation to make it
03:56
fit your brand and your like the
03:58
decisions you made for every other
03:59
design tool like type and color how you
04:01
apply that animation then we talked a
04:03
little bit about sound - oh that's
04:04
amazing sound in what way um part of it
04:08
is like looking at it so much um and
04:12
like it should we really hate it this
04:14
much and then like how to make some
04:17
smart sound decisions if you're like
04:18
alright I don't hate sound how I would
04:20
do it good um some some starts some
04:23
starting points for that so it starts as
04:25
you're saying for sure put like a
04:27
player immediately like when you log in
04:29
to your thing like all right cool I want
04:32
to hear the Adams family right now like
04:34
as soon as I log in to definitely know
04:53
Adams okay great so it's just maybe it's
04:58
kind of the way that people might have
05:00
thought of animation as a second thought
05:02
now that's more coming to the forefront
05:05
kind of expected maybe it's it's time to
05:08
think about sound that way yeah I think
05:10
a little bit I mean I don't think it's
05:11
necessarily going to be as core as
05:13
animation or type or anything like that
05:14
but like no it is a thing that we have
05:17
available to us and it's like you might
05:20
as well do a good job of it if you're
05:21
gonna use it so that's kind of that's
05:23
kind of my stance on it like it's really
05:25
you know you're gonna do it you should
05:26
do it well and like you should have also
05:28
have a good reason for not doing it
05:30
instead of just being like sound is dumb
05:31
like I feel like just have a slightly
05:33
better like no it doesn't fit because
05:35
we're doing this that's I don't know
05:37
that just makes so much oh yeah well do
05:43
you think that you know animation might
05:44
be you know secondary to design a lot of
05:48
the times like you know even like
05:51
something as small as like hover Fox do
05:52
you think that that's something that is
05:54
that of way after the whole design
05:56
process and how do we you know as
05:59
developers and designers kind of look
06:01
for those opportunities to enemy yeah I
06:04
mean a lot of the time it is I don't
06:05
think it should be but that tends to be
06:07
what happens and a lot of the times and
06:08
people are like oh oh I'm having so much
06:09
trouble getting animation into my work
06:11
and it's like well when do you bring it
06:13
but they're like oh you know at the end
06:14
when we have time like there's anything
06:17
you're putting it like if you you know
06:19
if you're like in a design review of
06:20
some kind you're like hey and then you
06:21
know we'll animate this and people be
06:23
like okay yeah we'll just think about it
06:25
later like of course it's never gonna
06:26
get done
06:27
oh and there's like anything you're
06:29
putting off too like when we have time
06:31
like there's never time so I think part
06:33
of it is making it a priority and
06:35
deciding like you know a lot of the the
06:38
brands and the companies that do
06:40
animation really well
06:41
they've decided that's part of how
06:42
they're communicating their brand
06:43
they're like this is what we want to say
06:45
one of the ways we're saying in his
06:46
motion therefore it's been like
06:48
proclaimed as important enough it has to
06:51
get talked about throughout the whole
06:52
process
06:52
because if you're not talking about at
06:54
the beginning you're never gonna
06:55
magically like oh we have this magical
06:57
extra day let's animate stuff and even
06:59
if you did you know you're backing
07:01
yourself up against a wall there right
07:03
linking if you wait to the annual we've
07:04
got time awesome then whatever you make
07:07
has to be perfect on the first try and
07:09
if it's not which like one is anything
07:11
you've ever done perfect on the first
07:12
day it was not for the first try you're
07:14
like animations and it's kind of you
07:21
know the same way is like some people in
07:22
some brands like so our animation is not
07:24
what they use and that's fine but I
07:27
think it's really different to just like
07:28
keep putting it off or just not bother
07:31
thinking about it I'm deciding like no
07:33
you know this is what our brand is gonna
07:34
say we're gonna do it predominantly with
07:36
like type in color and nothing else and
07:38
then you like you've got a stance you've
07:39
got a thing you're going for versus just
07:42
kind of not defining that and just being
07:43
like well we'll do what we have time for
07:45
and then like that just never really
07:47
works out you think it's sometimes a
07:50
harder sell or maybe companies that are
07:53
I don't know more the enterprise level I
07:56
feel like you like the smaller
07:57
combination of a little bit more hip to
07:59
try things out and try to present
08:02
themselves a more of a modern aesthetic
08:05
yeah I mean I think enterprise in
08:07
general seems to be a little more design
08:09
hesitant which is kind of silly in a way
08:11
because you're like the best even the
08:13
most complex products like you're just
08:15
like if the thing you're making looks
08:16
like Excel or whatever you know it's
08:18
like you need even the most complex
08:19
things need design I feel like some of
08:21
those areas like I know industries
08:24
segments that tend to just be like
08:25
design isn't important they're almost
08:27
the ones that need it the most
08:28
yeah yes you might think design isn't
08:30
important but I've tried to use your
08:31
stuff and let me tell you I actually
08:36
recently just quit a subscription
08:38
service that actually had a good product
08:40
and because their UX was so terrible I'm
08:43
like oh I'm sorry this is so bad I can't
08:45
I can't do it yeah not a fan of their
08:52
experience it's like if it's yeah
08:54
it's like if it's not easy to use if you
08:56
can't figure it out you're just like I
08:57
don't care how good your stuff is yeah
08:59
exactly what do you think are the two
09:02
like major like this is what you should
09:04
do no matter what kind of like animation
09:08
can go to you first I think they make
09:14
your out is like if what you want to
09:16
stay with your brand and how you're
09:17
gonna say that with motion which is like
09:18
a lot of what I'm covering tomorrow if
09:19
just like you how are you gonna make it
09:21
match the rest of your brand like if
09:22
your brand is all like sophisticated or
09:25
even like Sarah was showing like a brand
09:28
during her talk that was like very like
09:30
pastel pink sand like they're like
09:31
cursive II type and just like a lot of
09:33
white stays very like chill like a brand
09:36
like that if you go throw in a bunch of
09:38
like bouncing animations that are like
09:39
hey here's stuff like that never gonna
09:42
work cuz like the the you know the brand
09:44
is saying one thing in the animation
09:45
saying something else get those two fit
09:47
together and then the second thing I
09:49
think would be to find those purposeful
09:50
places for animation like you're telling
09:53
stories and having like beautiful
09:55
animation animated illustrations are
09:57
great but like if you want to make it
09:59
part of your product like think about
10:00
like where can we use like animation for
10:02
feedback or help connect States or
10:04
different views of things like how can
10:06
we use it to help people through what
10:09
they're gonna get done is a Pohang to
10:10
take them away from whatever it is
10:12
they're doing yeah I know both
10:14
differences are actually no they were
10:15
only two talks I think so far today but
10:17
like one thing they both mentioned was
10:19
like focusing on what people are
10:20
actually trying to do with your product
10:22
and like it sounds so simple but there
10:25
are so many products I use that I'm like
10:27
you did not know people know what I'm
10:30
trying to do here like you are clearly
10:32
designing this not for me we'll see yeah
10:48
and it's I think its own I don't know
10:50
it's mean it's a tough figuring out what
10:53
people want to do and focusing on that
10:54
it's tough I mean there's a reason why
10:55
this comes up so much it's like one of
10:57
those things like it sounds so easy and
10:59
it's not easy but it's so important like
11:02
if you can do that
11:03
there's so much successful yeah well cuz
11:06
what kind of advice would you give to
11:07
you a company
11:08
that is more like make it work as
11:12
opposed to make you know the user happy
11:15
so that we can actually make monies um
11:18
why would making how are those different
11:21
okay if it work if it works and the user
11:24
is not happy why are they gonna give you
11:25
money
11:26
those are the same thing you wanted to
11:28
work and make people happy or maybe not
11:30
like happy like you don't not everything
11:31
has to make their day and be beautiful
11:32
but like or make their day beautiful but
11:35
like if it works and they get their
11:36
stuff done that level of happiness I
11:38
feel like that's the same thing as
11:39
making it work it makes sense yeah you
11:41
know I heard uh what was it I forget who
11:43
it was on on Jason show on these are
11:48
user defenders yes it was talking about
11:50
the other day how there's a lot of CEOs
11:53
are rewarded for making money but the
11:56
reward system might be a little off
11:58
because they're not rewarded for making
11:59
good experiences for users which
12:03
sometimes could be two different things
12:05
I've actually been I'm gonna digging
12:07
into a lot of that I've been really
12:09
curious about this whole idea of like
12:10
design and Trust and how we create trust
12:12
or like suggest something is trustable
12:15
with design if you like it kind of fits
12:17
into that like there's things you can do
12:18
that will like get conversions and get
12:21
money but are they good for the person
12:23
that you're getting those conversions of
12:24
my and it's not always yeah sometimes a
12:28
thing that's better for the people
12:30
you're making the stuff for actually
12:31
doesn't make you more money and then
12:33
like oh that's a tough at the top
12:36
balance but also I feel like it's kind
12:38
of an important one because if you're
12:39
doing stuff that's like kinda I don't
12:42
know a mid-level shady weird dark matter
12:47
eventually that person that you're
12:49
getting the conversions from is gonna
12:50
realize that you're kind of tricky long
12:51
so it's like I don't know it's tough
12:54
it's like is that really better you're
12:56
getting money now but then they're gonna
12:57
leave and like you know year cuz they
12:58
paralyze Trinity I mean yeah it's
13:03
interesting because like maybe those
13:05
stakeholders slash investors you know
13:08
they got that money that they needed for
13:09
the first two quarters and they're happy
13:12
and they're out and that's great it was
13:14
a six success rate in their eyes but
13:16
really you could they might have been
13:18
able to provide such a great
13:20
if they just maybe you you know played a
13:25
little longer game and got the money at
13:27
the end well that's also true it's like
13:28
everything's so focused on that short
13:30
game and like that investment like
13:32
pattern like how do you make a thing
13:34
that doesn't you know like how do you
13:36
get your the investments you need if you
13:37
aren't doing the thing that everyone
13:38
else is doing when it comes to just like
13:40
focusing on money I don't have any
13:42
answers they're bigger attention or just
13:49
like design like good design and then
13:51
like kind of I guess deciding for good
13:53
or designing good things always the same
13:56
I'm like oh that's that give me some
13:59
tough decisions they're just tough
14:01
questions to ask know hey so how did you
14:04
actually get involved with an event
14:06
Department um a few years ago I actually
14:11
I don't entirely know but I think they
14:14
just grab you one day no here's a
14:21
microphone and sometime after that they
14:29
invited me to do a talking about apart
14:31
so I'm assuming those were related but I
14:33
have actually no because we know but it
14:39
was fun it was very actually really
14:42
nerve-wracking the first time they
14:43
invited me because I was like oh my god
14:44
Nevada paralyzed needs to be sort of
14:53
like and it's still like every time they
14:58
want me to come back
15:08
she'd say definitely going to like your
15:10
local meetups and and everything like
15:11
that kind of got you started speaking
15:13
and being involved oh yeah definitely
15:15
yeah I mean that's actually or like yeah
15:19
I feel like the local meetups and local
15:21
meetup scene is totally change my career
15:23
like in the early days I went to some
15:25
because I was like I want to learn this
15:27
stuff but like no one at my work is
15:29
doing so I found a meet-up for it and
15:31
like took me money try as I think to act
15:34
I'm pretty sure like the first three
15:35
months I was like I'm gonna go I can't
15:38
I'm gonna learn so much from those nips
15:40
and then eventually sorted like yeah
15:43
there's just so much I feel like I get
15:44
shared in those and just even just
15:46
realizing it like there's other people
15:48
that have the same like concerns and
15:50
issues as you you're like not it's like
15:52
sometimes you know you read these
15:53
tutorials or articles and everything
15:54
seems like so perfect and easy you're
15:56
like it can't be that perfect they're
15:58
like you feel like you are doing it
15:59
wrong because it's not that perfect
16:00
I feel like meetups are the place where
16:03
you like find out like oh it's not that
16:05
perfect and easy for everyone like
16:06
you're not doing it wrong it's you're
16:08
okay yeah and I when I first start
16:13
speaking is definitely I meet up some
16:14
things and they're I think they're
16:15
really great so yeah go to meetups
16:20
meetups not necessarily meetup calm go
16:27
to meetups don't like them don't like
16:28
the meetup suck so you know we have a
16:34
lot of people that are watching that
16:35
could not make it to the event possible
16:38
travel issues or their company Whitten
16:41
we're gonna have to do word company
16:44
couldn't show off the cash but do you
16:46
have any kind of bits for those people
16:49
that might not have been able to make it
16:50
not like the event sure you know
16:55
something about you know a take away
16:58
from you or talk that might be able to
17:00
share okay yeah I think we're two things
17:03
like one thinking more about how your
17:07
animation fits your brand and putting a
17:09
little time into that and like it looks
17:10
literally like a little time like you
17:11
could do this in like an afternoon and
17:12
it actually makes for a pretty fun
17:13
afternoon like yeah I highly recommend
17:16
spending an afternoon figuring out like
17:17
what easing and timing and stuff works
17:19
best or says the same thing is your
17:21
brand and if the idea of like using
17:24
sound on the web makes you really angry
17:26
maybe think about why because I feel
17:29
like it's just something just think
17:31
about it me I feel like there's just so
17:33
much we could be doing with it that
17:34
could be really good like good design
17:36
and just like quality stuff maybe we
17:38
should stop hating it so much the last
17:44
thing I wanted to ask you about is and I
17:45
know your fragment mr. Rogers
17:47
did you know that because we talked
17:49
about it on the show a bunch of times
17:50
you know that Tom Hanks is gonna be
17:52
playing mr. Rogers yeah yeah oh you got
17:56
to see the pictures on IMDB it's like
17:58
okay mr. Rogers
18:00
there's a movie out right now that's
18:02
like a documentary about mr. Rogers
18:03
right right there's gonna be like a
18:05
reenactment of mr. visit to Tom Hanks
18:07
yeah I hope I recently found I actually
18:11
for some reason that's why one of my
18:13
co-workers brought this up to me like
18:23
they're so creepy they're honestly still
18:27
still yeah they're they're just until
18:31
there's the children they seem in
18:32
Pittsburgh they actually have all the
18:33
puppets and I discovered there's
18:35
actually like a first-person YouTube
18:37
video of them going through all the
18:39
cases like just rushing to the I mean
19:22
[Music]
19:40
well I hope you get to might still watch
19:43
it because I think he has a really
19:45
interesting story of how all that stuff
19:47
had like how he got his show and did all
19:49
that oh yeah and the way he like
19:51
introduced like certain kind of politics
19:53
of the time and he worked it in like
19:55
yeah he's a really interesting guy
19:57
there's a an NPR podcast us and she
19:59
recently talked all about
20:01
the current issues and like just how you
20:03
like yeah mr. utters yeah yeah that's a
20:14
good policy needs to help make it a
20:17
little softer on the puppet design yes
20:20
LMS better us Thank You ppreciate it and
20:29
thanks everybody and stay tuned we're
20:30
gonna have a lot more speakers coming up
20:33
thanks guys