00:00
my hair today everybody Fredrik Philipp
00:09
von vices thank you for consuming the
00:11
Thunder nerds conversation with the
00:13
people behind the technology love what
00:16
they do and do tech good ah dude tech
00:19
hey and we're at is bent apart and we're
00:22
talking about damn wall
00:23
oh come on show Dan thanks it's nice to
00:25
be here yeah great to have you Dan you
00:27
are a the founder and design director at
00:31
super friendly which sounds like a very
00:34
friendly place my upon yeah yeah and and
00:36
you're also a teacher yes that's right
00:39
yeah at school did you mind telling us a
00:41
little bit about you and now what you do
00:43
yeah sure so I'm a designer I'm a
00:45
creative director I grew up with the
00:47
school for design grew up drawing and
00:49
doing design and so now I run an agency
00:51
it's a little bit a little bit different
00:53
agency and my role is kind of like a
00:55
director on films where my job is to
00:58
just make sure that all the actors and
00:59
all the people doing the work are doing
01:01
their best work and trying to get that
01:03
out of them it's really good metaphor
01:06
written a couple times so what is you're
01:13
talking to kind of be about today you're
01:15
speaking later on say okay I love the
01:17
title love till launch do us part that's
01:20
right yeah so my talk is about the
01:22
designer developer relationship and I
01:24
think that you know a lot of these
01:25
conferences that we go to talk about how
01:27
designers develop developers should
01:28
collaborate and and work together and I
01:30
think no one really disagrees with that
01:32
but what I find is when I work with
01:33
designers and developers especially
01:34
in-house teams work with the my agency
01:36
works with they don't really know how to
01:38
collaborate and they think that they do
01:40
until you know me and my team kind of
01:42
come in and say this is what it looks
01:43
like to really engage work with each
01:44
other so my talk today is gonna be about
01:46
like tips and tricks and like really
01:48
actionable things as to how designers
01:50
and developers can sit together and work
01:51
together not do the whole throw it over
01:53
the wall thing on how to really engage
01:55
with each other and I think that leads
01:56
to a better work did you have a personal
01:58
phil collins or genesis experience that
02:02
made this happen you know i think i've
02:06
been lucky in my career to work with
02:08
people that know how to collaborate and
02:09
i've sort of taught me how to
02:10
collaborate and and so I always just
02:12
thought well this is how it is this is
02:13
how
02:14
goes until I went to you know tell us
02:17
start working with clients and I go they
02:18
don't they don't do this and it's cuz
02:20
they don't know how to do this so I kind
02:22
of took it upon myself to be like
02:23
alright well somebody's gotta gotta show
02:25
him right so yeah I have just kind of a
02:32
little bit he's a designer yeah like
02:34
super awesome then I'm a dev and you
02:38
know we butt heads all the time sure we
02:40
don't work together no um but you know
02:45
it is difficult to kind of like have
02:47
that conversation with your designer or
02:49
vice versa right with your developer to
02:51
be like hey this thing needs to move
02:53
exactly four pixels to the left and like
02:56
having those like really difficult
02:58
conversations about really honestly just
03:00
four pixels how how would you go about
03:03
you know telling designers and
03:05
developers how to make that problem work
03:08
well so I think the the first thing is
03:10
it's about the relationship right so a
03:11
lot of people approach it thinking well
03:12
no it's all about the work and what that
03:14
kind of says and like I get the
03:16
sentiment of that it's usually a
03:17
positive one which is like no we're all
03:18
in it for to make a great product but
03:20
the subtext of that is sort of like well
03:22
I don't care about you because this is
03:23
all about people work and so I find that
03:25
the first thing it's like well we have
03:26
to like each other and trust each other
03:28
and make sure that what you're saying is
03:29
in my best interest to and if I know
03:31
that well now I have an incentive to do
03:33
what you're asking me to do and I
03:34
haven't incent and you have an incentive
03:35
to do what I'm asking you to do I think
03:37
a lot of that is just like fine how do
03:38
you find trust how do you find partner
03:40
ability yeah the ability to like because
03:42
collaboration is really about joining
03:44
together it's a merger of sorts right
03:45
and so I think it's a lot of a lot like
03:48
that where you have to have trust first
03:49
and then if there's trust now you can
03:51
start to do things that that complement
03:53
each other and help each other I think
03:55
help is a lot of it and then aside from
03:57
that front of tactical and I find a lot
03:58
of times developers are doing a lot of
04:00
work the designer should be doing and
04:02
designers are actually doing a lot of
04:03
work the developers should be doing so
04:04
from the tips and tricks standpoint I'm
04:07
like well let's separate those two
04:08
things and let's design let's add
04:09
designers kind of take back some of the
04:11
part that should be on them all right a
04:12
lot of times developers are finishing
04:14
the design in the browser Jenn Simmons
04:16
said that yesterday in our talk yeah
04:17
they're finishing design work and the
04:18
designers don't do anything to enable
04:20
good design for developers and vice
04:21
versa so a lot of what I've been
04:23
thinking about lately
04:24
how do we flip that a little bit how do
04:26
we let designers kind of own more of the
04:27
design process and developers own more
04:29
development but also vice versa have
04:31
developers being on the design process
04:32
signers in on developing process do you
04:34
have any kind of takeaways for that any
04:36
kind of things that you've employed in
04:38
the field that you find some some
04:40
results with that so one popular one
04:42
that I think people don't take advantage
04:43
of right now is design systems are a big
04:45
topic right now and part of design
04:47
systems are this concept of tokens
04:49
all right so tokens are things that you
04:50
can declare abstractly right you create
04:52
a file somewhere whether it's JSON or
04:54
XML or something that has all of your
04:56
colors your typefaces your rounded
04:58
corner radius that's typically a
05:00
developer's job right a JSON file or an
05:02
XML file but if you think about all the
05:04
stuff that is in a tokens file it's all
05:06
to design stuff so why aren't designers
05:08
owning tokens so a lot of the things so
05:11
that's one of the things that I talk
05:13
about a lot it's like well how do you
05:14
get a designer to own a tokens file how
05:16
do you set up the workflow how do you
05:17
set up the tooling you know so that a
05:19
designers not like gonna setup gulp and
05:21
build tools and all that stuff on their
05:22
machines but how can they own a really
05:23
abstract file so that if they want to
05:25
move this thing four pixels to the right
05:27
it's about editing a configuration file
05:29
rather than sitting with a developer and
05:31
going to pixels up one pixel tupid two
05:36
pixels you know like that over the
05:39
show-me people don't really like to do
05:40
do you think it's more of like a
05:42
trepidation of getting actually into
05:44
development for a designer do and and
05:46
how do we overcome that how do how do we
05:49
make development not so scary yeah so
05:54
I'm a people person I like to talk about
05:56
the touchy-feely stuff because it
05:57
impacts our work so much I'm a designer
05:59
but I find that if you can make people
06:01
comfortable they tend to do better work
06:02
yeah and so for me the the trepidation
06:04
with designers is not that code is hard
06:06
I mean that might be one part of it but
06:08
most designers can get over that the
06:09
trepidation is if I don't do a good job
06:11
here am I gonna fire yeah right that's
06:14
the thing developers while you own the
06:16
design okay but if I don't do a good job
06:17
am I gonna get fired so a lot of this
06:20
especially in a workplace that is you
06:21
know that that's that's tough um a lot
06:24
of what people are worried about it's
06:26
like I have to do a good job otherwise
06:27
my livelihood is in the line right if
06:29
you can remove that part of the of the
06:31
equation that opens the door to a lot
06:32
more different conversation so how can a
06:34
designer Sato developer I'd like
06:36
you to own some of the design part but
06:38
if it doesn't go well that's cool it'll
06:39
be on me and actually mean it actually
06:41
be willing to take to take
06:42
accountability and take willingness for
06:44
that so I find that a lot of it is just
06:45
like making people comfortable with that
06:47
and how do you remove the risk from them
06:49
the risk is I'm gonna get fired I don't
06:51
have this job I have to support my
06:52
family all that stuff is wrapped up into
06:54
can we move that thing for pixels to the
06:56
right you get so many people that will
06:58
say like oh that's not my job I'm going
07:01
to distance myself that's so-and-so
07:03
that's coral down down the block there
07:06
he does that that's where I do this I'm
07:08
safe and it's exactly that too it's like
07:11
well if things go wrong I want it to
07:13
blame to be over there not over here
07:15
exactly and so if you can take that out
07:16
of the equation if you can remove that
07:17
from the dynamic of workplaces I feel
07:20
like it opens up the door to a lot of
07:21
different possibilities how do we go
07:22
down that road I think a lot of it is
07:24
trust is you know that in order for you
07:27
to do something for me
07:28
the easiest way that I can get you to do
07:30
that is I have to do something for you
07:31
first so if I can do something for you
07:33
first I think it'll make you more likely
07:35
to do something for me both providing
07:36
value and that's right but I've got to
07:38
start I can't ask you to do something
07:40
and me not do anything yet yeah I'm much
07:42
more likelihood if I go hey I grab your
07:45
beer from the fridge
07:45
yeah it's cool yeah and then I grab you
07:48
a beer or I buy your pizza and hey you
07:50
mind sitting with me while we do this
07:51
design thing it's much easier than hey I
07:54
need you to do this by you in the day
07:55
I'm actually going home cuz I gotta go
07:56
you know I got a paintball tonight but
07:59
you know good luck staying late yeah
08:00
nobody wanted to do that so I think a
08:02
lot of it is what what can you do first
08:04
for someone else and then I think
08:06
they'll be much more likely to do a free
08:07
so I have a bit of a question of
08:10
sometimes a lot of people will like
08:12
internalize that that like blame game
08:14
kind of thing and someone down the
08:16
pipeline will be like okay this is my
08:18
fault no matter what even if it's not
08:19
not their fault at all right um how
08:22
would you counteract that kind of
08:24
feeling - because I mean at the end of
08:26
the day someone might even just be like
08:27
oh it's totally my fault I to somebody
08:30
who knew about the thing and so now it's
08:32
my fault and I gotta fix it yeah I got a
08:35
couple of tools to help with that so the
08:36
first tool and certainly it's not things
08:38
that I made up these are things that I
08:39
found that other people created that I'm
08:40
like that's super useful the first one
08:42
is called a racy matrix and a racy
08:45
matrix that's RACI it stands for
08:47
responsible accountable consultant and
08:50
info
08:50
and what I do at the beginning of every
08:52
project is I list out all of the roles
08:54
that that people will have to do on this
08:56
project so all right we got to make
08:57
icons we got to do comps we have to you
09:00
know HTML with tourette's the SS get the
09:02
right job all the things that we're
09:03
gonna do on this project and across the
09:05
top we write all the roles or even
09:06
sometimes more specifically all the
09:08
people you know Jenni and Kyle and Jim
09:10
and I write you know an RSC an A or not
09:15
so Jenni is responsible for the icons
09:17
Karl is responsible for the HTML this
09:20
person is accountable for this thing and
09:21
it very clearly delineate it's okay if
09:23
things go wrong who is the person that
09:25
will accept responsibility but also who
09:28
is the person that should get the credit
09:29
if the icons come out killer Jenni we
09:31
are promoting you like you're gonna get
09:33
you're gonna you're gonna get the reward
09:34
from this too and you know some people
09:36
are not comfortable being responsible
09:37
for anything and that's okay this makes
09:39
it plain I just want to be informed
09:41
about everything but I don't want to be
09:42
responsible great Kyle you wouldn't you
09:44
have no arse on on your side of the
09:45
chart and so using a chart like that
09:47
makes it visible kind of makes it
09:48
transparently these are the people that
09:50
are responsible for these things if I
09:51
want to know who's in charge of the
09:52
icons I can just look at this chart and
09:54
go oh it's Jenni she's in charge of the
09:55
icons I can go talk to her about that so
09:57
that's one tool for doing that it's like
09:59
just making that really transparent
10:00
because a lot of times we assume like I
10:02
guess the designers in charge of the
10:03
icons right but no one product manager
10:06
actually decided we're gonna use some
10:07
stock icon set but I don't know I go to
10:09
the designer because I don't know those
10:10
things so if we can make those things
10:11
more visible it becomes a great way to
10:14
kind of help people to know what they're
10:18
gonna get blamed for and what they're
10:19
not gonna get blame for so that's that's
10:20
one thing I forget what the second thing
10:23
yes but it's almost like with the first
10:25
dude you find it's easy to take that
10:27
information of bringing it to one's
10:29
employer and say you know what I'd like
10:31
to kind of set this into our culture yes
10:34
and thank you for reminding cuz that was
10:35
that that's part of the second thing is
10:37
that I think leadership has to be
10:38
involved in that too and so how can you
10:41
make it so that people know what praise
10:42
or what blame they're gonna get is I
10:43
think leadership should be involved to
10:45
set up those things for the people that
10:46
are that are underneath them and working
10:47
for them to say you know I think the job
10:49
of a good leader is to say if things go
10:51
well you all get the praise because you
10:53
all did this and if things go poorly
10:54
it's my fault for not setting this up
10:55
for you so I think the leadership should
10:57
certainly be part of that culture and
10:59
that could be top-down it could be
11:01
ground up it could be designers and
11:02
developers you know saying to their
11:04
manager
11:04
hey I'd like to implement this tool in
11:06
your culture let's bring it up every day
11:07
it stand up or let you know let's build
11:09
a slack bot around this or something
11:11
whatever the internal culture is but it
11:13
also could work top-down where a manager
11:14
could say I have this tool that I think
11:16
was going to help our team and help me
11:18
to articulate what what I'm supposed to
11:19
be doing for you so I think that it
11:21
could work either way so I have a
11:26
question JTP played piano I didn't tell
11:30
me about that okay
11:31
I I played the piano since I was three I
11:34
started late okay yeah a late bloomer
11:37
yeah I played the piano since I was
11:39
three I always liked doing it I used to
11:41
have a little Casio keyboard that I
11:43
would carry with me at a church every
11:44
week and in the pastor of the church
11:46
everybody would be like hey dad you have
11:48
a song you want to play for us and I'd
11:49
like March the front of the church and
11:50
play all song it's adorable and so I've
11:52
always been used to being in front of
11:53
crowds since you know since I was three
11:55
played in bands before and my parents
11:59
never forced me to play the piano and so
12:01
I think that's the reason that I stuck
12:02
with it it's like I was never like my be
12:04
mine my parents were never left you have
12:05
to practice you have to do the Saturday
12:07
piano lessons dan I mean I did it
12:09
because I want to do it and there were
12:10
times I was like I don't wanna do this
12:11
anymore and my parents like all right
12:13
you don't have to I guess I have
12:16
autonomy here so it was cool they gave
12:17
me a lot of a lot of capacity to decide
12:20
what I wanted to do with it inside I
12:21
keep doing it I think you got some great
12:23
great parents I do I do i bear parents
12:25
yeah yeah mmm
12:27
it's very gene Belcher they love it it's
12:29
very much gene did you do I play mostly
12:43
in Christian bands so I played in two
12:45
bands before I'm one I played for ten
12:47
years as a Christian band and then my
12:49
first band that I was at I played maybe
12:51
two shows and I don't remember the name
12:53
of the band
12:53
it was either so we either had a song
12:56
called the morning after or the name of
12:58
the band was the morning after it was
13:03
just so short
13:04
like you're in a band now I'm not I have
13:10
a wife and two kids and that takes up
13:12
most of my time yeah and so yeah yeah
13:15
maybe a family band yeah young kids I
13:18
have a six year
13:19
oh well I guess you seven hours just
13:20
turned seven a seven year old in the
13:21
four year old oh yeah two daughters yeah
13:23
that takes up a lot of time we've got a
13:25
three and a half year old yeah I
13:26
understand but they're all musical my
13:30
wife sings she's she's an amazing singer
13:32
like she's like the kind of singer
13:34
that's like like winds karaoke
13:35
competitions kind of singer kind of like
13:38
you know people go sing karaoke and she
13:40
goes up and oh you're a singer yeah and
13:42
so it's like it's a bit unfair so what
13:46
got you into what you're doing now like
13:48
you you were on a fast track to becoming
13:50
a piano yeah that's right genius so
13:55
speaking of my good parents my dad is an
13:57
accountant my dad is a very pragmatic
13:59
accountant and so like I have I have
14:01
Asian parents both of my parents are of
14:03
Asian descent and a typical for Asians
14:05
like they didn't want me to be a doctor
14:06
a lawyer my dad just the only career
14:08
advice he's ever given me was like
14:10
whatever you do make sure you can
14:11
support your family if you know if you
14:13
want to have a family make sure you can
14:14
support them so when I was like in high
14:16
school and trying to silence oh I want
14:18
to do this like a art thing because I
14:20
always drew and read comic books growing
14:22
up don't want to like I'm an art thing
14:23
or like a music thing and I was like I
14:25
think that music would be a difficult
14:27
life you know 16 I knew that yeah and so
14:31
I was like all right maybe I'll see what
14:32
this art thing does so I went to school
14:34
to be an animator because actually I in
14:37
91 92 I think is when Toy Story came out
14:40
and I saw a toy store I was like yep
14:42
that's it that's what I want to do sold
14:44
yeah and so I went to school to be an
14:45
animator and I realized in my first
14:48
semester how difficult animation
14:49
actually is yeah now I'm not cut out for
14:51
it but I was lucky too my major was sort
14:54
of split between animation and design
14:56
and I was like oh this design thing
14:57
actually pretty is pretty cool and so
14:59
that's out of that new earth in Lucas
15:07
Films I worked with Lucasfilm so I did
15:09
at one point part of my claim to fame is
15:11
I design Star Wars comm
15:13
not the version that's up right now
15:16
version just before the Disney bought it
15:17
dadgum that's pretty cool yep alright
15:20
nice that's a certainly high point my
15:22
career that is pretty fantastic yeah I
15:24
talk about that all the time yes it
15:27
doesn't every pitch first gonna start my
15:31
slide with Star Wars and I don't know
15:34
where all of it in his book well then
15:43
for the our audience the people that did
15:46
not have an opportunity to join us and
15:49
event apart this week
15:50
do you mind providing any kind of little
15:52
goodies or takeaways from your talk yeah
15:55
totally
15:56
so I think for my talk my talk is called
15:59
to launch to us part it's really about
16:00
engaging with designers and developers
16:01
and how do they can do that more closely
16:03
I'm like we talked about here I think
16:05
Trust is a big part of that the other
16:07
part is fine tooling and find ways to
16:09
really sit together I think that's maybe
16:11
the the best part of it and that doesn't
16:12
mean you have to be all in the same
16:13
location find ways to virtually sit
16:15
together so one things that me and my
16:17
teams will do even though we're
16:18
distributed is we'll send videos back
16:20
and forth and it's almost like my video
16:22
will talk to that person's video and
16:23
then we'll and we'll do that Brad Frost
16:25
who's on stage a little bit later today
16:27
he and I did a two-hour YouTube video of
16:29
like here's just how we work together
16:31
it's designer and developer so if you
16:32
want to see what that process looks like
16:33
you can check out that video on YouTube
16:35
that's really cool okay great yeah we'll
16:37
put that a link to that in the show
16:38
notes Gopal thank you so much for being
16:41
on the show thanks for having I super
16:42
appreciate it thanks everybody in stay
16:44
tuned we're gonna have a lot more
16:45
speakers coming up soon