00:03
hi welcome to the Thunderer's I'm Jenell
00:05
Pizarro and I'm Frederick Philipp von
00:07
Weiss and thank you for consuming the
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Thunder nerds a conversation with the
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people behind the technology that love
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01:23
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01:24
Oh tell us about your internet let's
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question so let's go ahead and get to
02:08
our guest we have an amazing guest all
02:10
the way across the world we have
02:13
strategist speaker mentor senior UX
02:18
product designer Jenny Shin welcome to
02:21
the show Jenny hi hi everyone thanks for
02:23
having me yeah thank you for being with
02:26
us super appreciate your being with us
02:28
all the way over there in the
02:30
Amsterdam's of course is my pleasure
02:35
do you know you still there
02:38
we lost you now so hey let's let's talk
02:42
a little bit about your your journey to
02:46
Amsterdam because you were where were
02:48
you born you were born in Taipei Taiwan
02:51
exactly and then somehow you into
02:55
Vancouver and then you ended up in aunt
02:57
Amsterdam do you mind if we talk about
02:58
that journey yeah so actually between
03:02
Vancouver and Amsterdam there's another
03:05
stopping between that Singapore and so I
03:09
was I was born in Taiwan and then when I
03:12
was 12 my family emigrated to Canada
03:15
so I grew up in Vancouver I studied in
03:17
Vancouver as well and in 2013 I moved to
03:21
Singapore and I also worked there for a
03:24
year and a half age and afterwards I
03:27
wanted a new adventure I kind of just
03:30
like moving abroad experiencing new
03:33
things the experiencing new cultures so
03:37
I decided that I want to move to Europe
03:39
and maybe work with European companies
03:42
European clients so in 2015
03:46
I chose Amsterdam and I I moved to
03:49
Amsterdam I work for a company called
03:50
travelbird and ibne Amsterdam
03:54
since then okay that's cool so what did
03:57
you do are you currently working with
03:59
travel Berg no so I work with Holabird
04:02
only in 2015 and then now I'm a
04:05
full-time independent designer and
04:08
strategist oh wow that's awesome so what
04:11
is your kind of day-to-day like I'm
04:12
doing just a being an independent
04:15
strategist yeah so right now I'm working
04:19
with some startups actually I work with
04:22
some startups and to help them define
04:25
more high-level product strategy
04:27
the roadmap and also help solve some
04:29
more kind of high-level design issues
04:33
like their positioning or maybe their
04:36
this is model and at the moment I am
04:39
really doing a lot of different things
04:41
and right now I'm like right now at the
04:44
moment I'm more focused on the design
04:47
education like coaching consulting with
04:50
a client and like bring in design into
04:54
the company or into the team and so my
04:57
day-to-day would be sometimes consulting
05:01
with a company sometimes mentoring
05:03
sometimes working on talks or working on
05:06
workshops giving a remote workshop yeah
05:09
doing all sort of different things
05:11
that's awesome so what kind of
05:14
challenges do you find that you come
05:17
across where working for yourself could
05:20
be difficult to find clients or work in
05:24
this nature yeah I think it's just well
05:30
I work remotely so right now I work
05:33
full-time remotely so and they're not as
05:37
many but it's not like you know the
05:39
typical job whereas I hey you know you
05:41
want to work for us and if I come to
05:43
office work full full time on-site and
05:46
it's like kind of the opposite of that
05:48
so the challenge would be there are I
05:52
feel they're less opportunities to begin
05:55
with and also and also as a freelancer
05:59
they you know freelances do have to be
06:02
comfortable with some you know like
06:06
without stability and also be working
06:11
now their own brand or their own
06:12
branding so that people will remember
06:15
who they are so then like when they have
06:17
a project they can just reach out to
06:19
Jenny or each other further I read each
06:21
other Janelle you know if they're if
06:23
they're you know like for freelancers
06:25
you need to feel your own brand and for
06:28
people to remember you how some of the
06:32
big ways that you address that to have
06:35
people remember you yeah I think for the
06:39
moment
06:41
I built that by running community so
06:45
people kind of remember me as Jenny who
06:48
organizes a lot of eventing Amsterdam I
06:51
go to a lot of networking events again
06:53
to them as well and since last year I
06:56
being really involved in conferences as
06:59
a speaker so I networking a lot as a
07:02
speaker and also of course participating
07:05
and attending the conference sessions so
07:09
then just by being active in industry
07:11
and also as a speaker I think it does
07:13
help and also with help of podcasts and
07:19
also live streams like this one and
07:21
people's more people can hear my story
07:24
can understand my experiences and and
07:26
know what I have to offer and how I can
07:29
help them what is your current kind of
07:33
like your conference strategy if that
07:36
makes sense a lot of it feels speakers
07:38
kind of go for like a six months to a
07:40
year has been here I didn't quite
07:55
understand the whole sentence first
08:00
party was just becomes my conference I
08:03
didn't even like what I do when yeah I
08:09
kind of like wait and now you have them
08:23
Jenni can you make out you know I can't
08:26
well I can just talk about my speaking
08:28
experiences and also like how if because
08:31
I think you also asked this question to
08:33
petrol in in his live stream
08:36
yeah you were asked so people who didn't
08:38
listen to that episode was my question
08:41
is more about do you apply to
08:44
conferences or to approach you so yeah
08:47
my my well the journey with conference
08:50
speaking is that I started just like
08:53
last year October
08:54
almost like a year ago and my first
08:57
conference speaking was via a
08:59
recommendation from someone at topsail
09:02
which is a community and a part of so
09:04
she introduced me to speak in Bulgaria
09:07
to a crowd of like a thousand people so
09:11
I'm like yeah I'll do it and I'll carve
09:14
a cog and give the give it there and I
09:18
think I got some good feedback and in
09:20
the same month I Gabe talked in three
09:22
other conferences so it's like the first
09:25
time I did converse speaking I gave it
09:26
to I gave for talks in one month
09:29
oh wow yo-yo is crazy and the four talk
09:33
also one which was via recommendation
09:36
the other one it was like a combination
09:39
of knowing the conference organizer and
09:42
applying the third one was that I
09:45
applied and the last one I forgot but
09:48
it's like a mix of everything and this
09:51
year I early early this year I applied
09:54
to some conferences and and they got
09:57
accepted but aside from like those three
10:01
the other 18 or so conferences and
10:05
events they reach out to me because they
10:07
have seen the videos and also the buzz
10:09
from the initial conference speaking I
10:12
did sure so that you know that's amazing
10:21
that you um just started off that
10:23
recently did you find yourself having
10:26
any kind of phobia speaking in front of
10:28
people or was it natural for you I
10:32
wouldn't say I have a phobia or it was
10:34
natural I mean the first time I I gave a
10:37
talk in a meet-up on this like most
10:40
popular topic that I have I was pretty
10:42
nervous and then I also my son of my
10:45
friends were in the audience and they
10:47
gave me a ask them for feedback and then
10:49
they totally telling me how like I could
10:52
be more open and more confident in my
10:54
body language so I kind of learned from
10:57
those experience but before I started
11:00
giving talks at meetups
11:01
I went to got trained by Toastmasters
11:03
and I also do some public speaking
11:05
workshop that's a good idea yes
11:08
it's something that I I want to get
11:11
better at is something that I like doing
11:13
I want to do more so right now I think I
11:16
am I will say comfortable with speaking
11:20
but I still get nervous before I go on a
11:23
stage yeah do you do anything to like
11:26
make yourself feel better or psych
11:29
yourself up you know do you have one of
11:31
those kind of things where you you know
11:33
say a little mantra before you go out
11:35
I'm good enough I'm smart enough I think
11:39
I did something like that maybe like a
11:42
few times but mostly for me what calms
11:46
me down is that when I remind myself you
11:49
know your stuff and I look through the
11:51
slides and make sure and I do detect
11:53
wreck and I make sure like my slides are
11:55
going okay and in the audio thing it's
11:57
plugged in and then my like I need to
12:01
have that sort of assurance that
12:02
everything is fine and then I will just
12:04
feel calm and I also just take a deep
12:08
breath it's really simple but it works I
12:11
take deep breaths
12:12
I also hope my breath because apparently
12:15
it's like allowing your brain to take in
12:18
more oxygen when you hold your breath
12:20
like worried yeah I learned that trick
12:22
recently I think it does work it's like
12:25
calm very calming when you take a deep
12:27
breath you hold it for a few seconds
12:29
then you let it out yeah it's quite
12:35
calming so I do that before I go on a
12:37
stage and I also try not to like look at
12:40
my slides or anything just before I go
12:43
on the stage because I'm sometimes I get
12:45
like more nervous if I do that I might
12:47
oh no I want to add this oh no I want to
12:49
say something different I start
12:51
panicking so I try not to look at my
12:53
slide just before I go on a stage yeah
12:56
it's nice to just kind of go out and
12:57
feel relaxed and organic and not over
13:00
prepare I think sometimes we could do
13:02
that in a lot of different situations
13:04
whether that's a an interview or going
13:07
up on stage or something where you have
13:10
some kind of business interaction yeah
13:12
totally it makes sense yeah exactly what
13:15
would you say is some good advice for
13:17
people that want to get into public
13:18
speaking you know obviously now you have
13:20
a little bit more
13:21
variance and you you might have some
13:22
additional tips and tricks besides
13:24
holding your breath what kind of things
13:29
do you recommend maybe people talk about
13:31
or tips for them to think about what
13:36
they're passionate about and how to
13:38
apply that when they speak in public
13:40
mm-hmm I have actually written a medium
13:44
post on the like my story from zero
13:47
conference speaking an experience to
13:49
speaking four times in one year so I
13:52
wrote about my experience we could we
13:53
can link it in a show notes yeah and
13:55
essentially it is like how to find a
13:58
talk topic is that I reflected back on
14:02
the reason one to two years of my design
14:05
experience work experience and think if
14:07
there's anything or any important you
14:10
know in interesting things I learned so
14:14
I was like reflecting back on the time
14:17
at travelbird and also my other
14:18
freelance project and also when I work
14:20
in Singapore we were we were making a
14:25
SAS product but then we had clients like
14:27
across Southeast Asia so we were we had
14:30
this I had as an interesting experience
14:31
working with different cultures you know
14:35
within a region like a traveler it was
14:37
with cultures in Europe and also you
14:40
know near Europe so I thought okay maybe
14:42
that's an interesting topic and it's
14:44
also kind of different from what other
14:45
people were speaking so I I talked to a
14:50
meet-up organizer in Amsterdam and they
14:53
were happy to let me prepare too and
14:56
give that talk the feedback was very
14:58
good and so I just decided to pitch it
15:02
to other conferences so that's how I
15:04
found my first talk topic I also are
15:09
quite involved in the community and I
15:11
talk to people and sometimes when
15:13
questions come up people will ask like
15:16
how do you organize your researching
15:19
sites how do you convince their coders
15:21
and how do you like you hand off and I
15:24
just sort of keep those questions in
15:26
mind like hey this is people like this
15:28
is what people want to know this is what
15:30
people want to learn and when I have
15:32
enough experiences and also a financial
15:34
saying
15:35
like I will just kind of incorporate
15:38
those kind of users knees into my talk I
15:44
make sense I've just given Janelle some
15:46
room Janelle did you wanna jump in yeah
15:49
I did I actually wanted to know about I
15:52
mean it looks like you're getting a lot
15:54
of like speaking engagements and yeah so
16:16
the community on the part of is called
16:19
ladies i ux where I founded the
16:22
Amsterdam chapter in 2015 so just almost
16:26
after I moved to Amsterdam
16:28
ladies aux is an a global community and
16:31
nonprofit organization where our mission
16:34
is to see is to kind of grow more female
16:38
role models more female leaders more
16:40
female speakers we want to help women in
16:43
UX to teach each other promote each
16:46
other and support each other and we have
16:49
this like signature worm supportive
16:52
inclusive vibe in a community so yeah I
16:55
founded the amphetamine chapter and now
16:57
I moved on to join the global leadership
17:00
team as the regional director of EMEA
17:04
it's awesome so thank you how was the
17:12
community specifically ladies that UX
17:15
how was the committee community helping
17:17
women in UX and and where is it just
17:20
within your visit in United States it's
17:24
actually we're activating over 50 cities
17:27
around the world
17:28
so we have presence we have chapters in
17:31
Europe in Asia in Australia in the unit
17:34
UN in the u.s. in Canada I think there's
17:37
one chapter in York there's one chapter
17:39
in Boston so yeah we are we're over
17:42
there over the world and how we are
17:45
helping women in York is that we
17:49
there's different types of events of
17:51
course we try to help each other by
17:54
sharing knowledge and that can be done
17:55
so that's done sooo like workshops and
17:58
panels and talks and we also are very
18:02
keen to have more female speaker so we
18:05
work with sometimes external partners to
18:08
organize like a workshop on public
18:11
speaking
18:12
crafting a talk and also giving each
18:16
other like giving women the platform to
18:19
speak because in my experience at least
18:21
like why I found that the Amsterdam
18:23
chapter is when I go to other meetups
18:26
tech meetups or UX design meetups are
18:29
usually just one of the handful women in
18:32
a room like our number with my or my
18:34
hand and most of the time like I see the
18:37
speakers being man because like there's
18:41
a lot of money in the tech industry and
18:42
you know I would just think like well
18:45
wires they're like like almost no women
18:47
in a meet-up why are there no female
18:49
speakers so a ladies who acts we we try
18:52
to give the the platforms for women
18:54
because if nobody know that they can
18:56
speak and then like they don't get
18:58
recommendations they go they don't reach
19:00
out and it's just like a chicken and egg
19:02
problem so we actively invite women to
19:05
speak give a workshop share their
19:08
knowledge with each other I love that
19:11
what kind of success stories are you
19:13
getting out of that do you have anyone
19:15
or any kind of thing that you could cite
19:18
sure I saw at least like when I talked
19:22
to people who are involved in a
19:25
community and so my experience is mostly
19:27
with Amsterdam so I can call it like
19:29
some members they really like a
19:31
community where they can connect with
19:34
other women because most of us we we
19:38
work with male colleagues and sometimes
19:40
it's just nice to like a child with
19:41
different you know like shy with women
19:43
and it have a different topic to to talk
19:46
about some people found their UX job
19:50
because we do have a lot of community to
19:53
connect with one another so they
19:54
actually got their UX job in a community
19:58
and some people from friends some people
20:01
started giving some people gave their
20:03
first talk you know meet up and then
20:05
they were going to other conferences to
20:08
to speak about it and yeah like many
20:13
people really like having a like a warm
20:16
inclusive community and really help out
20:20
each other like people say really
20:22
positive reviews on our meetup group
20:25
which i i i i feel i feel really really
20:29
good that people are finding value in it
20:31
I love that I mean as a woman I think
20:37
that having those environments kind of
20:43
with people that are like you you know
20:48
and and you're kind of like the underdog
20:49
it's it's nice to have that kind of
20:51
community I know from experience I ever
20:56
went to my first meetup was developers
21:01
and I felt so so nurtured and loved and
21:06
empowered and it was really great I
21:09
think you know when we feel like hey we
21:13
have a voice we have you know we matter
21:16
our opinions you know matter that we
21:19
feel also empowered to give other women
21:21
that kind of you know feeling to you
21:24
right we want to tell them hey you're
21:26
you matter your voice matters you know
21:28
your thoughts your designs your code
21:30
matters and I really think that I mean
21:35
that's all that you do that ease for
21:38
that because there's not a lot of places
21:40
that do that thank you it was also
21:45
really nice a year and I absolutely
21:46
agree with you it's just um feels feels
21:50
really like empowering and like
21:52
encouraging to know that many I mean of
21:55
many of the people in their community
21:57
don't have speaking experiences some
21:59
people are terrified some people don't
22:01
know how to formulate a talk but by
22:03
giving an epochal maybe like a lightning
22:05
talk slaughter you're like okay I can
22:07
speak for five minutes I can speak for
22:09
10 minutes only they start to learn that
22:11
hate isn't
22:11
not so bad after all this is not so
22:14
difficult after all and they kind of
22:16
help them gain the confidence but then
22:18
if the night outside of a community
22:21
there is often not opportunity where
22:23
they feel like oh I I'm definitely gonna
22:26
like pitch one our talk it's the wall so
22:29
we're really happy to see that people
22:31
are feeling more comfortable and even
22:33
like inspired by each other and to share
22:37
their knowledge love that
22:39
what do you mind if if I ask you a
22:42
question like what are some of the
22:44
challenges that you came across in your
22:46
own professional career that might have
22:50
led you to form this community or you
22:55
know not this community but the
22:57
community within Amsterdam
22:58
like what are some of the challenges
22:59
that you had early on in your career
23:02
mm-hmm I would say that I mean they're
23:06
not like big challenges like I was
23:09
denied of jobs or anything like that it
23:12
was more like something that I want to
23:14
do it was more like I want to build a
23:16
community that I would love to be a part
23:18
of I mean I do go to a lot of networking
23:21
events and Meetup it was just that it's
23:25
a little bit odd to always be will
23:29
almost always be the only remainder room
23:31
and then feeling like like people don't
23:35
really want to listen to me listen to
23:38
what I have to say and I I wasn't sure
23:41
if I was the only one having this kind
23:43
of experiences so it was maybe I was
23:45
thinking maybe it's worthwhile to
23:46
connect to two other people and see if
23:48
this is like something that you know
23:51
like only I experienced and is also more
23:55
like a feeling where if I look around
23:58
the room I see like you know a hundred
24:00
people and I am like one of the only
24:02
women and I feel like you know like mmm
24:06
eyes the post is like dressed
24:07
differently would I be mistaken as
24:11
somebody's assistant or a girlfriend
24:13
like the more people question me like
24:14
why am i there it just all of those like
24:17
thoughts I mean he kind of feel like
24:19
dude I belong here should I be going
24:22
there it's just also a feeling of like
24:25
you differ
24:25
between feeling like I belong there or
24:28
and welcome there and versus you know
24:30
the opposite there is no it's kind of
24:32
like feelings that kind of inspired me
24:36
to do this and actually even after I
24:39
started a community we also start
24:42
sometimes you get like questions like
24:44
why are you separating women and that's
24:46
like you know not fair so we got a lot
24:49
of those challenges challenging
24:51
questions as well and then I still
24:55
sometimes swimming I can encountered
24:58
sort of microaggressions I don't know
25:02
how to put it like after even 20
25:05
conference speaking experiences some
25:08
people when what I need other speakers
25:11
they are even asking me isn't your first
25:13
sign speaking yeah but unlike would you
25:16
ask someone else that question oh my god
25:18
like why would you ask me that question
25:21
yeah I do I know those are like little
25:24
challenges at ease I personally
25:27
experienced well did you find it I know
25:31
you said you did a lot of a lot of
25:34
testing with in Europe on your last
25:36
position where you traveled around and
25:38
you talked to a lot of people did you
25:40
find that within different cultures in
25:42
Europe you have different kind of
25:45
perspectives of women in tech and how
25:48
they would appreciate and maybe some
25:51
some areas location is not hmm I I don't
25:58
really have an answer for that to be
26:01
honest because I've been to I being like
26:04
speaking Asia as well and I sometimes I
26:07
also hear that that they're in the
26:11
country they're more like also
26:13
advocating for gender equality so I
26:17
don't I cannot really like I'm afraid to
26:21
give like a generalizing answer like
26:23
this country is not in this country just
26:30
mean in general like in general do you
26:32
find like certain countries have more of
26:34
a different respect for women than
26:37
others when you
26:38
you travel or is it just kind of a
26:41
little bit here and there in different
26:42
countries I think overall in general
26:46
they are there still room for
26:49
improvement for gender equality
26:51
especially the gender wage gap in any
26:55
country I mean even like Iceland there
26:57
are some stats where you know the
27:01
Earth's on like ranking for like
27:03
progressive countries or whatever like
27:04
countries with like at least he got but
27:06
even in Iceland they are still like a
27:08
quarter
27:08
women earn like a quarter less than men
27:10
in the same job singing singing
27:12
experience so I think there is just some
27:14
room for improvement so I don't I don't
27:18
think we we reached there yet and even
27:20
in Europe I I talk with a lot of people
27:24
and sometimes I hear experiences where
27:26
it's just like showing that we still
27:31
have a long way to go how much do you
27:46
make without feeling like you know a
27:51
terrible person or not a team player you
27:56
how could you go I think it's a really
28:02
tough question and so I also don't know
28:05
if there's there's the right way or
28:08
there's the way to approach it because I
28:11
think in in most countries like salaries
28:13
a really personal is a really private
28:15
thing and people don't really tend to
28:17
share that so I was saving for the Aston
28:20
colleague there have I would not company
28:24
something about if they are paying both
28:27
genders like equally and if maybe the
28:30
country has like a law I know I know I
28:32
think it was like Iceland or maybe it
28:34
was like another country that make
28:36
illegal to pay women and men differently
28:39
so perhaps I'll ask measures like that
28:41
if there's like the eCos similar measure
28:44
in the company and also I really look up
28:46
to come companies like buffer they make
28:48
their salaries like completely
28:50
transparent like
28:51
okay no you know what year like what how
28:54
many years of experiences and while
28:56
they're earning what's your position so
28:57
I think like maybe that's other
29:00
companies and I think it's hard but
29:03
maybe it's not a companies can adapt you
29:05
know something like that kind of mindset
29:06
to be transparent yeah why have that a
29:10
secret or something that's you know
29:13
weirdly kept private share it out I mean
29:26
a lot of times end up being your friends
29:28
so I mean it'd be really great lates you
29:32
kind of bring up that in conversation
29:35
you know maybe you're walking to your
29:37
you know your lunch spot how much do you
29:43
make I mean you know X amount of money
29:47
you know especially like providing that
29:51
information first it could be that
29:52
catalyst right and really what's the end
29:55
the end of it is you know you both end
29:58
up making the same amount of money
30:00
that's the worst that can happen
30:02
I like sorry I also think like HR or
30:09
agencies or people who hire like half
30:11
the responsibility because they know if
30:13
they know like the the women are I don't
30:16
know under charging or if the companies
30:18
like offering like like unfair amount to
30:22
different genders I think they could
30:25
also have the responsibility to speak up
30:27
about it that's thank are there any
30:31
tools or websites that people could go
30:34
to to see that information you know like
30:36
obviously you could go to Glassdoor and
30:38
you can see about a company but is there
30:40
any kind of tools or websites that you
30:43
could see this is what a men men make
30:46
what wouldn't make anything like that
30:48
they are some industry report so there's
30:51
glass doors and I think glass door does
30:53
not reveal like the gender of whoever
30:55
like report of salary so they are
30:58
industry reports and from what I read is
31:02
that there is still a gender wage gap
31:05
so I don't know that the Zhiming like
31:08
they already working on it or are they
31:11
like measure to make sure that doesn't
31:12
happen but what I what I do see from
31:15
those report is that there is a wage gap
31:19
and there's some reports like for
31:21
example for that UX industry it does it
31:25
does like survey I think like thousands
31:28
of UX practitioners and ask them how
31:30
much they make and what how many years
31:33
of experiences what the industry what's
31:35
a gender and then they they do like
31:37
compare and yeah long story short there
31:41
is a gender wage gap so I can I can
32:12
speak from my own experiences or someone
32:15
of Asian ethnicity at least like in my
32:20
in my culture in a Taiwanese culture
32:22
we're taught as especially Asian
32:24
especially especially Taiwanese and
32:27
especially the women we are taught to be
32:28
like humble and we should unlike brag we
32:31
shouldn't steal a spotlight for someone
32:33
else we should like glisten and like
32:35
like don't try to you know don't try to
32:39
like act as if you know everything so I
32:42
feel like for myself I have what people
32:46
call like the bamboo ceiling I didn't I
32:49
didn't start that term but I heard it
32:51
from somewhere but basically it's where
32:53
you know how the people play there's
32:55
like a glass ceiling for for women and
32:58
for Asian we have another ceiling where
33:01
like our Asian culture some points to
33:05
like prohibit us from like Jean Louise
33:09
you want to do if you believe just kind
33:11
of hard like this work talk to that kind
33:13
of artifact and how I don't see that
33:17
affect me
33:19
we've had my time multi-legged running
33:24
this on several experiments audio icon
33:26
side this is a side project science
33:29
experimental I having a walk over
33:32
designers we're going consider this
33:36
project and I will love your fellow
33:38
designers all together like basic
33:42
science so the time I meant if there is
33:46
good any other designers I asked him Tom
33:48
Knox no other if there are anything our
33:50
they're doing and so when I saw the
33:52
answers I asked you your life's work for
33:54
people from harvesting what you don't
33:56
come house lest ye enter this place
33:58
then your party more than I am tonight
34:01
by using this earring like how long have
34:05
I been under charging I just sitting on
34:07
know why I defend race if we talked a
34:09
lot about other people but for entire
34:11
advance my days after realizing that and
34:13
you say Hawaii together confidence
34:17
two-car garage so why do I have not have
34:20
the confidence or why am I not talking
34:22
as much as they are so I'm like okay if
34:25
you kinda have isn't is really it's
34:27
really hard to you ask to do my whole
34:29
year to something I can always dance
34:31
this is this this is just what I think
34:34
and also recently I saw a P I think it's
34:39
listen to our report
34:40
I can finally there and they need -
34:42
including the show notes where it for
34:45
several studies and and asked people of
34:50
different ethnicity and gender they'd
34:52
like / like right now like you know you
34:55
know agent you know in Gmail is like how
34:58
often do you have people those
35:00
questionnaire expertise or hop can be
35:03
your heart like you know like court-
35:05
experience here and then they are
35:08
clearly their response or people who
35:10
said yes yeah yeah like 30 superfan
35:13
people question with my expertise and
35:15
they compare that across it or different
35:17
sort of and from that research we find
35:21
that people of color if they have higher
35:26
percentage of people questioning their
35:27
expertise will have to work harder and
35:30
harder to more or agave or
35:32
knowledgeable objects will not people
35:36
not of color yeah so I'm fine I like
35:41
onion and I'm like supplying the not
35:46
supplies and it's just um and it's that
35:49
you don't have to feel like whatever
35:51
reporting and so I oh like you know many
35:54
of us like many people do have come
35:56
that's what it is experience has come
35:59
for us to have the life do you
36:04
find that just um you know with time
36:06
we're slowly making progression with the
36:09
age of everybody being able to have
36:12
accessibility if if you do have the
36:14
privilege of having access to the
36:16
Internet you know getting information
36:18
out there educating people and our you
36:21
know culture globally is getting better
36:23
I think so I think so I I think that
36:29
that's going slower and what I hope
36:32
forth but I think that with people
36:35
talking about you know ethics people
36:37
talking about inclusion and first-timer
36:40
like thunder nerves inviting people of
36:42
different profile to talk about their
36:44
stories their challenges and I think
36:47
we're we're getting somewhere and
36:49
definitely like sharing just having this
36:51
like no content like where everybody can
36:55
learn people like stories of someone
36:57
will fit different profile I think it's
37:00
a good start
37:01
it's yeah you know I'm really interested
37:04
in what you were just saying and it made
37:07
me think about I wanted to know what
37:09
your family thinks of your success what
37:12
do they think of your career if you
37:14
don't mind my asking
37:15
I I don't know actually I when I tell
37:19
them I hey I and keynoting at his
37:22
conference and I stand in like a big
37:24
pick like a picture of me standing like
37:27
in front of a super huge stage and
37:30
they're like oh good job so I think they
37:34
are our problem II at least and then
37:36
they are probably like behind my back
37:40
they're bragging to all of their
37:41
neighbors all your friends oh like you
37:44
might battery successful
37:46
to them she's traveling around the world
37:48
they're probably like bragging to their
37:51
neighbors that I don't know for sure
37:52
like I don't really ask them like one
37:54
time I did ask them like like you know
37:58
what do you think up on my career like
38:00
okay I live abroad I do all the stuff
38:03
that you don't think they understand I
38:04
don't go with a you know traditional
38:07
path of being a full-time employee for
38:09
like ten years then you're like yeah
38:10
just do whatever you like to do so I'm
38:14
like super grateful that my parents are
38:16
supporting me yeah it's awesome
38:20
yeah I think of anybody within our
38:22
industry has a difficult time explaining
38:25
to their family exactly you know they I
38:27
think like you know they probably just
38:30
go oh they they do web stuff you ever
38:34
see uh what's that movie by envision
38:37
design disrupters I actually did not but
38:41
I know of a movie I just didn't make it
38:43
to any of the screening oh you go to
38:46
envision and look it up it's a it's a
38:48
great film but it's uh it's a good
38:50
weight for and they even cite this in
38:53
the movie where people would take the
38:54
movie and they would like yeah I showed
38:56
my family this movie I watched with them
38:59
and now they understand what I do hmm
39:01
that's not like a good idea yeah it's a
39:04
good way to I say oh okay I get what a
39:07
strategy a UX strategy says oh okay
39:10
understood
39:10
got it they appreciate it a little bit
39:12
more you know I love there's there's
39:16
this episode of greater than code that I
39:19
was listening to that you were on I
39:20
think kind of recently right who's that
39:23
yeah I think that was about like a month
39:25
ago yeah okay yeah and uh they asked you
39:29
run off the bat what was your design
39:31
superpower and you said not giving the
39:34
what other people think and I
39:36
really really like that because and and
39:38
you also followed that up with standing
39:40
up for people and just just trying to
39:44
help out like to do with the community
39:46
and you know the community you started
39:48
in Amsterdam where does that come from
39:51
where is that like I don't I don't give
39:52
a and I'm I'm gonna do what's right
39:54
um so I think like the the superpower of
39:58
not give
39:59
is maybe like I learned from my
40:01
parents and Dodie like moved from Taiwan
40:05
to Canada and away from all your
40:06
relatives and you know like they were
40:09
doing their own thing and they were also
40:12
entrepreneurs they had their own
40:14
business
40:14
and they are actually retired now living
40:17
in Canada so I kind of just like I that
40:22
kind of just like the attitude I learned
40:24
from them and just they were also very
40:26
supportive like do what you want so I
40:28
just kind of started doing things and
40:32
I'm not really like care about what
40:34
other people think i some people think
40:37
it might be embarrassing some people I
40:39
think like well you're gonna go up this
40:40
stage what if you fall what if you yeah
40:43
what you're gonna say what if you I
40:45
don't know you know like I think about
40:47
like terrible situation and just say
40:49
yeah but I'm just gonna do it and if I
40:51
fall I fall I make a fool of myself i
40:54
buy likes know what so maybe I am more
40:57
optimistic towards that and be sending
41:00
out for others it's also maybe just a
41:03
personality you know I don't I don't
41:05
know where it came from but I will say -
41:09
OH
41:10
in general I would say it's like part of
41:14
the Taiwanese culture to stand up for
41:16
others or at least like have this like
41:19
you know I want to do it justice and but
41:24
you shouldn't be unfair and it should be
41:26
like make sure that people are oh happy
41:28
are treated equally I would say that's
41:32
perhaps a taiwanese tray but i am not
41:37
like super sure there's like no evidence
41:38
but at least at just how like my
41:41
Taiwanese friends also like that yeah
41:43
it's like if your friend has a bad
41:46
experiences with someone else and I look
41:48
like no I'll go you know I'll say
41:52
something about it and make sure that he
41:53
don't like bully or whatever Leon I love
41:57
that I you know to go back to the the
42:00
first part about not not caring what
42:02
people think we were talking to Pedro
42:04
Marquez on Thursday and we were talking
42:07
about and he kind of brought up the same
42:08
thing where it's where he said you know
42:10
I had so many people telling me to
42:13
not do this to not do that and I just
42:15
didn't give a and I I went ahead
42:16
and I owned my own and I'm paraphrasing
42:20
loosely that he owned his own destiny he
42:23
made his own life and his his own path
42:26
like that that's not something everybody
42:29
has within them but you know you it also
42:31
makes me think of this episode that I
42:33
listened to you a while ago on user
42:34
defenders with Jason and femke where
42:37
they were talking about kind of the same
42:38
thing where you don't want to wait for
42:41
someone to give you the the go like oh
42:45
yeah the permission to make your own
42:48
career you just if you want to do
42:49
something now is the time because you
42:52
know your interests your interests
42:53
always change your passions will change
42:56
if you want to do something just go
42:58
ahead don't wait for permission just be
43:00
you and be the best you you could be
43:03
yeah I totally I totally agree with that
43:05
I don't I also agree that we don't
43:09
really need permission because some
43:10
people perhaps for example like in terms
43:13
of conference speaking they'd only speak
43:15
if a conference invite them or like they
43:17
only speak on a podcast is somebody by
43:19
then but I've also like reach out to
43:22
people reach out to conferences reach
43:25
out to like those some publications I
43:27
hey can I like write for your blog I I
43:29
don't think that one has always have to
43:32
be like invited or you know like only if
43:35
a recruiter contact you about a jaw then
43:37
you will work for the company I don't
43:39
think I really make sense if you want to
43:41
do something just go for it yeah I don't
43:44
know why so many of us have that feeling
43:47
sometimes where we feel like we need
43:50
that permission and it's it's
43:52
interesting we I mean we all get that
43:54
kind of self-doubt or that what does it
43:58
call the syndrome V yeah exactly yeah
44:03
where we kind of feel like oh you know
44:04
am I actually good enough but yeah it's
44:07
hard sometimes to overcome that but at
44:09
least you know we we all push to try to
44:13
get better but you know sometimes some
44:15
of us can't can't make that connection
44:17
to take ownership of our own destiny
44:20
yeah and I actually that reminds me when
44:24
I when I talk to other designers
44:26
to other UX petitioners and especially
44:28
my mentees many people just like you
44:31
said they feel like they need to have
44:33
permission to do UX to to advocate for
44:36
UX to do research they're always like
44:38
waiting to have permission like the
44:40
waiting for somebody to say hey we need
44:42
to do use user research can you do user
44:44
research and they think that we need is
44:46
some permission whatever that I've
44:48
formed it should be to to do the things
44:51
that they are hired to do or like
44:54
establish better processes advocate for
44:56
design system so I think it's it's very
45:00
it's very normal and perhaps it's just
45:03
easier to be passive and active after
45:06
all like not everyone is super driven
45:09
and not everyone is like you know
45:11
productive but maybe people are
45:13
proactive in different things that I've
45:14
never thought that never saw the part
45:17
about this power where oh I do need
45:19
permission to use the research yeah yeah
45:23
that makes sense you know I never
45:24
thought about that way that where maybe
45:26
people are more proactive in other
45:28
ventures or other parts of their lives
45:30
where they might not their professional
45:33
career really really isn't the thing
45:34
that they're passionate about yeah yeah
45:38
I'm not sure yeah speaking of mentorship
45:42
I think I really want to talk about how
45:45
that's a big part of your website you
45:47
you have a big section about that and
45:50
you've been mentoring people now for how
45:52
long
45:53
well I think is for a year and a half or
45:56
a year and a half now but that is that
45:58
is like part-time mentoring like
46:01
consistently but before I also had
46:03
mentor mentoring experiences with
46:06
different organization different
46:07
involvement but then running my own
46:10
mentorship program has been going on for
46:12
a year and a half that's awesome so what
46:15
got you into doing that I mean is it the
46:17
same kind of inspiration for how you
46:22
created the the chapter in Amsterdam is
46:25
that where that comes from like why do I
46:27
take that on I'm sure you're busy enough
46:30
as it is so I actually like that came
46:34
after I started the Amsterdam chapter of
46:37
Lady soo X and the the sort of the
46:40
idea or like what push me to start it is
46:44
because I was talking well I'm always
46:46
like very involved in a community and
46:47
I'm like I have like tons of like
46:50
Facebook groups like channels and yeah
46:53
I'm like I'll involve online and when I
46:57
talk to me more at least I see crush
46:59
I see people saying well hey I'm looking
47:01
for a mentor like do you know anyone and
47:04
I just keep on seeing it's like pop up
47:06
everywhere like people are looking for
47:08
mentors and the people seem to have
47:12
trouble finding a mentor so I'm like
47:14
yeah okay I had a mentor before and how
47:17
did I get one I asked for him I actually
47:19
had to ask for a mentor at the time when
47:22
I was interning Ibn and I just also like
47:25
really liked that experience and and
47:28
also I did some volunteering mentorship
47:31
with other professors and also like that
47:34
so I thought okay so I have mentorship
47:36
experiences and I actually like I
47:39
actually like doing it I like to help
47:41
people grow their careers and people are
47:43
looking for mentors and I was also just
47:46
thinking that we never most of the
47:50
school's never teach us how to write a
47:52
you know proper resume how to sell
47:56
yourself how to market yourself how to
47:57
like put together a nice portfolio like
48:00
what you bring a personal branding like
48:02
school some really peaceful I have to
48:04
figure it out myself because I wanted to
48:07
be independent I wanted to be
48:08
independent designer strategist so I
48:11
thought there's actually already work
48:13
out of us stuff myself I might as well
48:15
just be a mentor and and teach people
48:17
how to get there so it was just started
48:21
as an experiment I would say okay I let
48:23
me put up a landing page look I'm like
48:25
Cody really quickly and see if people
48:27
are interested to sign up so I did and I
48:30
included like my mentorship experiences
48:32
and I also talked about like I wanted to
48:35
be I want to be the mentor that I wish I
48:38
had because a psyphon that meant for IBM
48:40
I didn't really have a mentor and I also
48:42
find it difficult to have role models in
48:47
tag especially female and person of
48:49
color people of color role model so I'm
48:51
like okay I want to be someone else's
48:53
role ma
48:53
even though I'm not like you know with a
48:56
decade of experience it but I think I
48:58
have something I can at least teach and
49:00
mentor people who are junior than I am
49:03
so I put put together a landing page I
49:06
just tweeted I shared it in several
49:08
social network and I kind of I wouldn't
49:11
say gone viral but it got a lot of big
49:13
Tweenies and people were like oh Jenny
49:15
is doing mentorship and I got like some
49:17
palsy but I haze you know so good for
49:19
you to do this because we do need more
49:21
mentors and I got a lot of signups and I
49:25
was I had more meant like possible
49:28
mentees and I could take so I actually
49:30
have to do some application forms on
49:34
process to make sure that people will
49:36
sign up they know what they're getting
49:38
themselves into like they do have the
49:40
time to work on their career goals
49:42
portfolio side projects whatever and
49:45
that they choose me because of my unique
49:48
experiences and they are not just
49:50
choosing anyone to be their mentor and
49:53
so so yeah I am lucky that people are
49:57
considering me to be their mentor and
50:01
still I am mentoring people until today
50:05
I love that you have you helped out so
50:08
many people just in so many ways that's
50:11
amazing
50:12
what are you people are you actually
50:14
mentoring right now do you have a guess
50:16
of how like under 20 or and so I I have
50:22
I opened like the the mentor II spot
50:25
whenever I have availability so I have I
50:29
think for like a few months I have three
50:31
mentees actually not so forth and then
50:34
two of them are like finishing they
50:36
finished last month and actually this
50:38
month I will open up more mentorship
50:41
spots
50:41
yeah usually it's between three to five
50:44
some ninety six so the most I have taken
50:46
like one time where I have like six men
50:49
teasing one month and then right now
50:51
it's a bit of a busy period because I
50:55
speak in like three conferences a month
50:56
so then I actually kind of thought back
50:58
on the amount of mentees I take but yeah
51:01
I savage in between like three to six
51:03
well they that must be such a rewarding
51:06
experience
51:07
it's like do you have any kind of points
51:11
that you'd want to share with us of some
51:13
kind of success that you you've seen
51:15
from that where you know you were able
51:16
to help out some person do this or that
51:19
mm-hmm yeah so I I will say like one of
51:24
the stories or one of the like like
51:30
something I am very proud of being a
51:32
mentor is that I was mentoring what of
51:34
my friend that I met in Singapore and
51:36
she actually was like in a totally
51:39
different industry she was an inventor I
51:42
think she studied also something dear
51:44
friend and she saw that I was doing UX I
51:47
was traveling around speaking
51:48
conferences so he's like hey how do I do
51:50
that
51:50
how do I do what is that like what you
51:52
do and working remotely and traveling so
51:55
I took her on us as a mentee and then
51:59
she went to General Assembly she took
52:01
like the course in Singapore and she
52:03
learned like all the things that UX
52:04
practitioners will learn but still there
52:07
still a gap between like you know
52:09
knowledge and actually applying at a job
52:11
and then we we work together on the
52:16
project and I was like giving her a feed
52:18
bag on her wireframe looks low and on I
52:21
thinking for the user and how to do user
52:24
research I was also helping her with
52:25
like the the CV her portfolio and making
52:29
sure that like she's able to explain her
52:33
her process to employers and so and then
52:37
so she went from no experience to your
52:42
know assembling students and then she
52:44
got her first freelance gig where I
52:46
coached her on how to talk to client's
52:49
and how to like give a business proposal
52:50
how to determine your prize and right
52:54
now she's working as a full-time product
52:57
designer and who you see for your
52:59
loyalty program in Singapore with me I
53:01
feel like no UX experience in my like a
53:04
full-time quite a designer with a
53:06
freelance client on the side I'm just
53:08
like wow I'm so proud of you I love that
53:11
that must feel so good to have made such
53:15
a dramatic change in someone's life and
53:18
to empower them provide them
53:21
a new career and ways of thinking that's
53:24
amazing yeah and and I really definitely
53:28
enjoy seeing my mentee squirrel and I
53:30
seeing them seeing them like giddy our
53:35
first UX job or successfully changed a
53:38
switch from a different kind of career
53:40
to UX and or like there was also one
53:45
mentee who have also never done public
53:47
speaking before and I was sharing with
53:49
her how I dropped proposal I was sharing
53:51
with her what I learned from the tech
53:53
public speaking book and about like
53:55
through line and how to actually tell
53:57
engaging story and she gave her first
54:01
talk at a university and sit down I'm
54:04
like wow and it's like super proud of
54:06
you and I think it's being there for
54:07
mentees when they have a question and to
54:09
listen to their concerns listen to their
54:12
you know to your doubt and be the
54:14
sounding board and then later seeing
54:16
them succeeding giving a talk getting a
54:20
full-time job or or delivering an
54:22
awesome project it's like yeah it is so
54:24
rewarding yeah that's wonderful I mean
54:27
yeah you like I said before you how
54:30
about so many people when you touch so
54:32
many lives it's awesome who do you look
54:37
to for inspiration or as a mentor where
54:41
where do you get your inspiration who's
54:43
some of the biggest people for for me I
54:48
look up to people who have who are
54:51
independent so then that's not I don't
54:53
limited to Joe's UX designers or UX
54:56
petitioners Jessica he has being a my
54:59
role model for a really long time
55:01
because she's like helping other people
55:03
with her site project she's like super
55:05
passionate about does the homework like
55:08
lettering work and and yeah she's
55:12
independent and also in the illustration
55:15
space years Alice Lee also a person of
55:18
color which I also like like look up to
55:21
so much also got to meet her xoxo which
55:24
is like it's amazing to meet her role
55:27
model and she's like killing it with
55:28
designing and illustrating for like like
55:31
slag and well-known clients so kind of a
55:35
spire to to be like that one day they
55:38
are also independent UX designers like
55:43
Sofia pratter he's also a leading 2x
55:46
olanta chapter leader and she has her
55:49
own podcast and she works like I think
55:51
AT&T; and I also really well know clients
55:55
running our own studio and ears people
55:59
like in the web developer space like
56:03
Rachel Andrews and who are like author
56:06
and who are like speaking everywhere
56:08
who's like just the authority in the
56:11
industry so yeah I can name so many
56:15
people I it's just awesome that I can
56:19
actually meet these people at
56:21
conferences and they are so approachable
56:22
and yeah yeah we were just we were at
56:28
the an event of part conference in
56:30
Orlando and we were interviewing all the
56:32
speakers and we we got to speak with
56:33
Rachel and she's amazing yeah just like
56:35
you said like everybody you would think
56:38
you know some of these people might be
56:39
like oh you know I don't have time I got
56:41
to do this I gotta do that but
56:42
everybody's approachable and super nice
56:44
and I think that's one of the motifs of
56:47
our industry is that everybody is very
56:49
happy to answer questions and share
56:52
their knowledge yeah exactly
56:54
I I think I saw that on the website as
56:56
well then you already vendor part and
56:58
you also talked with like Yoona and
56:59
talked with like Josh karma again yeah I
57:01
think I really look up to people who do
57:05
this for a living they are like
57:07
publishing books they are speaking at
57:08
conferences and they do this by themself
57:10
they're they're not full-time employee
57:12
they're like consultants and that's what
57:15
I aspired to be yeah me too that's great
57:20
well I mean you're on your way you're
57:22
you're you're there hey let's we're
57:24
right at the end of the show and we're
57:27
running out of time and a super
57:29
appreciate you being on it I would like
57:31
to provide you any kind of provide you
57:34
an opportunity to provide some kind of
57:36
final words for our audience any kind of
57:38
words of wisdom that you'd like to
57:40
bestow upon everyone I would say if
57:45
you're interested too
57:48
superpower of not giving a listen
57:51
to the blog of the art of not giving a
57:53
and also if you liked what you
57:56
listened to today and you're interested
57:58
to find out more about mentorship
57:59
consulting or you the best way to get to
58:03
know me is actually through my
58:04
newsletter which I actually started a
58:06
few months ago and I've been really
58:07
enjoying sharing my experiences of
58:11
reflections recent events upcoming
58:14
events every every two weeks
58:17
ish I send out a newsletter and it's the
58:20
best way to keep in touch nice so what's
58:23
what's the address obviously we'll put
58:25
all this in the show notes but what's
58:26
the address that people could go to sure
58:28
it's Jenny Sheng comm slash newsletter
58:31
okay great and before anyone else and
58:34
what's your Twitter handle how people
58:36
can follow you in Twitter
58:37
yep it's just Jenny Shane perfect great
58:40
alright well hey Jenny thank you so so
58:43
much for sharing your time with us and
58:46
being on the show and providing all
58:49
those great takeaways and your story
58:51
really really really appreciate it yeah
58:54
of course is my pleasure and I think
58:56
yeah enjoying the conversations and we
58:58
talked a lot about important topics yeah
59:02
thank you yeah thank you yeah all these
59:05
things are really important to talk
59:06
about now again this is the last show
59:09
everyone of this season season 3 so make
59:12
sure you stay tuned we'll be back in
59:14
late January for season four so thanks
59:17
everybody for watching the show really
59:19
appreciate it see ya